My guest on The CITIUS MAG Podcast is Emma Grace Hurley and since we last had her on in May, a lot has happened. She went to Copenhagen last weekend and finished fifth at the World Athletics Road Running Championships in a personal best of 1:06:23, an American record for an all-women’s race. She also helped the United States women’s team claim the silver medal — a result that, going into the day, wasn’t even on anyone’s radar. The team went 5th, 6th, and 7th with her, Weini Kelati, and Jess McClain all finishing within 30 seconds of each other, and the photo of the three of them at the finish is one of those American women’s distance running moments that we want to blow up into a poster.

In less than three weeks, she runs the Chicago Marathon for her debut at the distance. So there was no easing into the post-Copenhagen glow, no week off, no victory lap. She got home, got drug tested, and went back to training.

Emma Grace is an ASICS athlete who trains under Andrew and Amy Begley with the Heartland Track Club in Indianapolis. She came into this season as the American record holder at 8K, won the USATF 10-Mile title at the Cherry Blossom 10-Miler, claimed the 25K national title and finished second at the USATF 5K Championships in May.

The Copenhagen team silver was the chapter that closed out the Atlanta misdirection drama from March, where she was one of the three athletes who were sent off course in the closing mile of the USATF half marathon championships and ultimately earned her spot in Copenhagen through the special exception World Athletics granted.

You can listen to the full interview with Emma on the CITIUS MAG Podcast. The following highlights have been transcribed and edited lightly for clarity. Stream, download and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube.

CITIUS MAG: Congratulations on an awesome weekend in Copenhagen — an American record for a women's-only half marathon, No. 3 U.S. all-time overall, fifth in the race. Has all of that settled in yet?

EMMA GRACE HURLEY: Well, thank you. Not really. I think it's one of those things where you realize what it means to you six months later. Everything happened so quickly. It hasn't really settled in, because if you'd told me beforehand that was what was going to happen, I would have been floored. But now I'm just like, okay, I've got to refocus on marathon training. I've been able to appreciate it — I just haven't really taken the time to yet.

CITIUS MAG: How's the body feeling coming off the half?

EMMA: My body was feeling pretty rough yesterday, which is good — I don't want to feel good the day after. Today it was still a little rough, but I got some treatment and now I feel good.

CITIUS MAG: When we last spoke, we couldn't even talk about the fact that you'd already chosen Chicago — they have their own timeline for announcing the elite field, which came out at the end of July. What made Chicago the right fit? It is where you broke the 8K American record earlier in the year.

EMMA: That was a huge part of it — I really loved being there earlier in the year, loved the people, thought the event was super fun. It essentially comes down to two options, and I'd had success in Chicago, so it made sense to come back and see what that meant for the fall. And knowing that Copenhagen was on the calendar, they're essentially the same race — just one is twice as long. Both flat, both windy. Chicago is a little more scripted with the men and women running together, but training-wise, the courses are similar enough that you can train for them at the same time in a way that New York wouldn't allow.

CITIUS MAG: When you sat down with Coach Andrew Begley and mapped out race plans, it feels like so many people have wrapped their entire lives around the marathon trials. You're working backwards from St. Louis. What made this the right time to jump into the marathon?

EMMA: I plan on having two marathons done before the trials. Initially we thought about doing it last year, but we didn't want to go in underprepared. And I was still getting faster in practice at 5K and 10K work this spring — until that stagnated, it didn't make sense to move up. Now we're in a place where I want to have two done before the trials. One this year, one next year, then St. Louis. This one is for learning. The next one is for nailing it and being confident going in.

CITIUS MAG: In May, you said: "By the time we get there, I don't think we'll leave any stone unturned for the first one. There's still room to grow, but I do think I'll be very ready." Are we living up to that?

EMMA: Yeah, I think so. I've definitely had some really hard days and there is still room to grow — the obvious one being that running a world championship half three weeks before your marathon debut is not normal preparation. I also felt like I never quite hit that thing people talk about in marathon training, where they're just completely wiped from the mileage. I did feel it, but I think it was combined with the heat. As soon as it stopped being brutal every single day and went to more like five days on, five days off, things got better. I haven't had a truly disastrous workout since the first week of August, and that was just a horrible heat day. So I do think there's room to grow — most people hit that wall, and I probably haven't fully hit it yet…

I think what Andrew's done really well is that every season has felt like a small step forward — never a big leap. Some results look like big steps, but from my vantage point they make sense given where I was the previous season. That's something I can't take credit for. What I can say is that we run pretty hard in practice — uniquely hard — and being able to recover and eat well and sleep enough between Tuesday and Friday and Friday and Sunday and Sunday and Tuesday, showing up and nailing it every time, is really exhausting. But I really like being a little hermit who just focuses on one thing. A lot of times, giving a hundred percent effort means chilling and going to bed. It's a little boring. But I like knowing I'm doing everything I can to make the days that matter as good as they can be. Because if I give up a small percentage in a workout, there's a small percentage I gave up on race day.

Jenny Simpson said something on the Rich Roll podcast recently that I really loved — that you can't rely on just wanting it more on the day or in the thirty days before. It's 100 days, it's 300 days. That connected with me. It's something I do well: months and months of just focusing on one thing without getting bored or antsy. The easy part is eating well and going to bed.

CITIUS MAG: What’s your mileage gotten up to?

EMMA: My highest was somewhere between 110 and 115. This week will be 111, but I'm only at 26 so far so I have a lot to go.

CITIUS MAG: Is that a big jump from when you were training for halves?

EMMA: A little. I've maxed out at maybe 105 for a half, which is probably quite a bit for a half — but everything has been a small step toward being able to nail 28. Andrew isn't big on high mileage for a lot of weeks in a row. His philosophy is that if you can hit the peak for four to six weeks, you'll be just as fit as if you stretched it to ten. He's had us doing big workout days — over twenty miles — even without the highest weekly number, and I think that's probably more effective than chasing the big week total. We'll see. It worked out this weekend, so I'm just going to let it happen.

CITIUS MAG: Going into the Copenhagen, what was the goal?

EMMA: I wanted to be top ten. And I thought that was an insane thing to say. I really did. But that was the goal — I just wanted to be right there.

CITIUS MAG: What were the team vibes like?

EMMA: We didn't really talk about our individual goals, but in the team meeting we discussed our medal chances. We were a little worried because the scoring was by time, not cross-country scoring. If it had been cross-country scoring, we felt pretty good about a bronze. But with time scoring, Rebecca Cheptegei was on the list for Uganda and she's quite good, so we thought there might be some really fast times we couldn't close. Silver wasn't even really on our radar. We were thinking maybe, on a great day, we could be close to bronze.

CITIUS MAG: Morning of — any signs that it was going to be a good day?

EMMA: I literally slept terribly the night before. Just could not sleep. I'd been spoiled staying in this incredible hotel — perfect location, all the food I wanted, great air conditioning, a comfortable bed. Then Team USA housing opened Thursday. I'd been there since Monday on my own dime, and the team hotel ended up being an airport hotel with limited food options. So I'd extended my original hotel, but the night before the race I moved over to the team hotel and the air conditioning wasn't working and the bed wasn't great. Connor and Ahmed were apparently up with the lights on trying to figure it out too, so it wasn't just me.

But the night before doesn't really matter. I was like, whatever — I'll just go eat my breakfast. And then I felt horrible on warmup. But Andrew came out and watched my 200s, which I do about 45 minutes before — two by 200 — and he said they looked fine. You just feel bad. And I knew from experience: it's always different once the gun goes off.

By about a kilometer in, we were in this big pack and I was looking around and thinking — I actually feel really good right now. Weini and Jess also looked amazing. The three of us looked really easy. And that was fun, to look at the rest of the pack and go: we're chilling, and not everyone else is.

CHRIS: Putting on the Team USA kit — you've done it before for World Cross. Did this feel different?

EMMA: A little. World Cross was the first time, and it was overwhelming. I didn't race nearly as well as I was capable of — partly the feeling of doing it for the first time, partly just that championship cross country is its own thing. This time I had that first experience behind me, plus I'd raced internationally in Tokyo and Valencia. Even races like the Mini 10K, with huge international fields — being in those environments more helped me not feel so overwhelmed. I felt pretty comfortable. But it is really special to represent your country. I had grandfathers on both sides who served — one was lost in World War II, but the other one is still around and so happy. I saved the little flag etiquette pamphlet from the meet for him. He's going to love it.

CITIUS MAG: By 3K, Agnes Ngetich is gone. What's happening in that chase pack?

EMMA: Being there with two other Americans actually made me feel comfortable, even though it was a little nerve-wracking. We were hanging in the back of the pack as long as possible and there was a lot of yo-yoing. Andrew had given me a speed limit of 4:50 — quite fast — and I was just focused on not going under that and staying in it as long as I could. I knew in the middle of the race that whoever was leading would start trying to thin the pack, so I knew it would eventually settle.

CITIUS MAG: The broadcast caught you in a couple of contact situations and your foot getting clipped and nearly falling. What was happening?

EMMA: I definitely ran into people a few times. But from my vantage point, it felt like there were abrupt stoppages from the athletes in front of me that I had no say in. There would be chatter — I don't speak their language — and then either everyone would sprint or everyone would slow, and I just had to react as fast as I could. A couple of times I just went to the front to avoid it. Weini speaks it and she understood what they were saying, and she let me know afterward that she wasn't pleased with how things were going. It sounded like there may have been some team tactics — which is completely fine, that's racing. We had our own team tactic too. But it did sound like they weren't thrilled that two Americans were still in the pack that deep.

CITIUS MAG: You hung with them for almost an hour. What happened?

EMMA: Right — Andrew said something along the lines of "You could medal, just hang in there," and they immediately took off. Maybe they were planning it anyway. But given that everyone out there knows English, the timing wasn't ideal.

CITIUS MAG: Once the lead pack started to get away, what were you mentally doing?

EMMA: I'd been fartleking so much that I was a little toasted at that point. I looked around to see if Weini was close enough that we could work back up together. It looked like we were running about the same pace, and neither of us had the momentum to close that gap. So at three kilometers to go, I was like, ‘I can't catch them, but there's 3K left. I know I'm running well and barring a disaster, we have a team medal.’ So it was a really exciting last three K. I wish I'd been in contention a little longer. But I was also in that position longer than I would have thought I could be before the gun went off.

CITIUS MAG: Could you see bronze from where you were?

EMMA: Maybe 10 or 15 seconds ahead. I could see it. In the last 600 meters I was actually a little worried about falling since my legs were giving out. There were a lot of smoother ways to run that race. It started so fast, settled a bit, and then there were a lot of little surges and brakes and adjustments throughout.

CITIUS MAG: In retrospect — reflecting on the journey — it's got to feel good, even if the medal didn't end up in your hands.

EMMA: I was thrilled. Going in, I wanted top ten and a team medal and I thought both of those were huge reaches. To be fifth with a team silver was above and beyond what I hoped for. And obviously now that I've been that close, I want it — but in that moment, a medal wasn't something I'd thought would be there. Being that close was like: oh wow, maybe this is something to think about in the future.

CITIUS MAG: There's an epic photo of you and Jess right after she crosses the finish line — your mouth is wide open. What's happening in that photo?

EMMA: We just went 5-6-7 at a world championship! Are you kidding me?!? Going into the day, we had basically conceded the team medals to Kenya and Ethiopia. We thought there was no way we'd get better than bronze. So for three of us to be five, 5-6-7 was way better than I could have hoped. I knew Weini was right behind me, but at that point I didn't know where Jess was. To see her finishing that strong and still right there — I'm someone who doesn't really care about being the top American. I'd rather be fifth and the third American than tenth and first. So having all three of us right there was just amazing. I think I would have been just as happy if the order was reversed.

CITIUS MAG: American women's distance running has so many of these iconic team finish photos over the last decade, like the ones of Emma Bates, Keira D’Amato, and Sara Hall in 2022. Now you, Jess, and Weini. Every group that's shown up has taken one step forward.

EMMA: Yeah, at least since I've been running professionally, every time someone's gone and done it, it's been a small step forward from the last time. That's been really cool.

CITIUS MAG: What was Andrew's assessment after the race?

EMMA: He very rarely doesn't have something to critique. I don't think I heard "you could do this better" or "think about this for next time." I'm taking that as the perfect day. I think I finished a little higher than either of us expected, though maybe not quite as fast as he thought I could run — we weren't focused on time, we were focused on position.

CITIUS MAG: Now you're back in Indianapolis, back in marathon training. Where do the nerves show up going into Chicago?

EMMA: The nerves are mostly around not knowing what I don't know. I can be as prepared as possible, but without having done one yet, I don't know the questions I should be asking. I feel really prepared and really confident. And I know it wasn't a textbook build — the big happy interruption of Copenhagen being three weeks out isn't normal. But I still feel 95% confident I'm capable of having a really good day.

CITIUS MAG: People are going to see the Copenhagen result, peek at your Strava, and jump to conclusions about a target time for Chicago. But you're not the type to throw out goal paces. What are you actually hoping to get out of the day?

EMMA: For the first one, I just want to run whatever time I'm fit to run. I'm probably going to start a little bit conservative — just to get there and not have a horrible experience. Chicago is very geared toward times, and that's a big part of why people go there. But I'm excited to just race and see where it brings me. I'll have my own pacer with a multi-step plan depending on how things unfold.

When I think about the day, I'm looking at top 10. I don't really care about my place in the Americans — I'd rather be in the top ten with all of them beating me than a different scenario. I just want to compete well and feel like I gave it my best. I'll come away from this one with things to learn, and next year is the one I really see as nailing it before the trials. This one will be a little cautious — it'll probably look like a big swing on paper, but from what I think I can do, we'll back off a bit.

Listen to the full episode here.